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Post by hawksmoor on Sept 13, 2014 3:31:33 GMT -5
Sometimes, I wonder what the point of people reviewing other titles is.
Not here, by the way.
When I was at Uni, when we offered criticism, or critique, it was accepted, and the other person, unless really strongly opposed to it, went off and tried to amend that element of the story. The idea was that we were all in it together, funnily enough, a community, and that we would help each other grow better as writers.
Perhaps I'm just cranky because we just finished out first twenty minute run this morning, but, when offering criticism to some people, what I don't really expect to see back is some obnoxious comment about how what the person was doing in Literature, and then the person quote a book as being 3rd person when its 1st.
Sorry - Irritated here, because...honestly, why bother unless it's to tell the person they're brilliant?
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Post by The MRP! on Sept 13, 2014 15:07:48 GMT -5
If I start to reply, I will likely start a rant that will make me late for work, so I will simply nod as part of the chorus and maybe post later when I have more time.
-M
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Post by buck on Sept 14, 2014 0:02:56 GMT -5
Preach.
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Post by The MRP! on Sept 14, 2014 0:42:20 GMT -5
Sometimes, I wonder what the point of people reviewing other titles is. Not here, by the way. When I was at Uni, when we offered criticism, or critique, it was accepted, and the other person, unless really strongly opposed to it, went off and tried to amend that element of the story. The idea was that we were all in it together, funnily enough, a community, and that we would help each other grow better as writers. Perhaps I'm just cranky because we just finished out first twenty minute run this morning, but, when offering criticism to some people, what I don't really expect to see back is some obnoxious comment about how what the person was doing in Literature, and then the person quote a book as being 3rd person when its 1st. Sorry - Irritated here, because...honestly, why bother unless it's to tell the person they're brilliant? I'll try to keep this brief and not stay on my soapbox too long. There are a lot of factors at play here... In simplest form, there are writers and then there are dilettantes. Writers understand the role of criticism and I don't think they are the targets of your beef, dilettantes however..well dilettantes never do anything wrong so why should they accept criticism. See here's what you need to consider about dilettantes and why things are the way they are for a lot of folks who fancy themselves writers (or whatever)... 1) over the last 3 decades people have been brought up in the gold star educational system, no matter what you do it gets a gold f-ing star as long as you tried, shit on a plate gets the same accolades as truly good stuff from pre-K up, so there is absolutely no incentive to do good stuff and the one thing kids never learn is how to take criticism and work to make their own stuff better. Whatever they do is great and you can't tell them otherwise because nobody ever has. It may validate their self-esteem but leaves them thin-skinned and woefully unprepared to deal with the harsh truth of the real world that is cut throat competitive and results oriented. I tried and putting shit on a plate is just not good enough but no one has the tools to cope with that or to do better, they just look at you doe eyed like you kicked their puppy waiting for their gold star instead. They expect people to blow smoke up their ass, because that's all they have ever known. All it breeds is a sense of entitlement and lowering of standards breeding people to accept mediocrity as genius. Worse anyone who dares to criticize or offer truthful critiques is looked at as too stupid to accept their obvious brilliance because they have been told since day 1 they are fricking brilliant (repeat the lie often enough and it becomes the perceived truth). 2) Writing is a process that takes time and we live in an instant gratification society. The dilettante belief is that all writing is, is putting words on paper and the idea is all that's important-expressing the idea is enough it doesn't matter if the words are right...that's all writing is...and it's total and utter bullshit. Writers know the truth, dilettantes haven't the vaguest notion of a clue. An idea is an idea, it is not a story, essay or research paper. There is craft involved, process, blood sweat and tears. Writing is hard. Why does it take George Martin so long to write a book they whine, he only has to put words on paper to get the ideas out there-and I want it now-no thought to the countless hours planning, doing research, annotating research notes, pre-writing, breaking down ideas into beats, scenes, sequences, chapters, etc., editing, revising, multiple drafts, comments from his editors, rewrites, beta readers, etc. etc. before a single chapter is done let alone the entire novel, knowing ahead of time what is happening so he can foreshadow, plan, etc. not sitting down and coming up with 1500 words from scratch after the last chapter was written and calling it good. Because by god that''s not what writing is about is it. Writing is easy and anyone can do it well and my stuff is just as good as the pros an don't anyone dare to tell me otherwise. Because they are brilliant and the equal of any pro and fuck you if you dare disagree with them because you just don't get it. 3) Entitlement-we live in a world where people are spoiled, everything has been handed to them and they have earned very little of it. They stand on the shoulders of giants and can't see it. They live in absolute certainty of the validity of their truths, but those truths are so fragile they cannot brook any challenge, so those challenges have to be stomped out or belittled. But they are entitled to their truth to be the only truth. And if you try to challenge that, you make an enemy even if your goal is to help them improve. They don't need improvement, at least not in the truth of their world. There is no longer any sense of a meritocracy. If the internet is the great equalizer, it achieved equality not by raising up people to meet the standards but by dragging the standards down so low anyone can achieve them. I aspire to be a writer. I am not one, yet, despite numerous published credits to my name. I am nowhere near good enough yet and I still have tons of crap I need to get out of my system before I do really good stuff. I will take every informed or thoughtful critique on my stuff I can get, because it can only make me a better writer. Socrates is believed to have said true wisdom comes not from what you know, but in knowing what you don't know. As a writer I need to know what my strengths are, but also my weaknesses, and look for ways to get better at those. But that requires accepting I have weaknesses, it requires knowing what I don't know. That type of attitude is no longer common, especially in wannabe writers/dilettantes, because it has been kicked to the curb by the crushing heel of our society's quest for validation. Equality is to be cherished, but it needs to be equality of opportunity, opportunity that each individual exploits/benefits from according to his or her abilities, dedication, work ethic, etc. For too many though, they expect equality of outcome not of opportunity, and believe they deserve the outcome without putting in the effort, having the ability, or doing more than oh I tired aren't I wonderful. So to address your question-why should we offer critiques to others...because it separates the wheat from the chafe, the aspiring writers from the dilettantes. Because we learn from helping others and critiquing them as much as from being critiqued. If they tell us fuck you after we critique them, we have still learned from their mistakes and the process of critiquing them, even if what is learned is reinforcing a lesson we have already taken to heart. Because in critiquing them, we take one more step closer to our own goals of becoming a better writer, and fuck them if they are too thin-skinned or thick-headed to see the value in it. -M
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Post by hawksmoor on Sept 14, 2014 11:31:16 GMT -5
I agree with you there, 100%.
I do apologies if this came off as arrogant, chaps. I just find it extremely frustrating - it's always the same people, as we've discussed before MRP. By all means, I'm not saying that I know more than these other writers, I'm just trying to work out the best way for me to write as well. What I do find frustrating is the wanton disregard for listening to feedback, that entitlement that bashing 1000 words out onto paper is perfect, because it's down on paper now. No editing. No consideration. It happened, now it's issue #2.
It doesn't help, that in this particular example, I really dislike the structure of the narrative, with it being 3rd person, but the thoughts of the character aren't indicated as such. It's just part of the narrative. 1st and 3rd mixed together in a horrid way. Like you say, these guys aren't interested in actually improving of listening to feedback, they just want to be told they're brilliant and carry on with the next pump out.
I'd rather be told I'm total shite than have someone tell me I am great. Frankly, to argue through something, is proving you're not a good writer in the first place. if it was well written, you wouldn't need to ask. The problem is, as I'm getting off topic here, like MRP mentions above, it's instant gratification stuff. You write, you want the mysteries of everything explained immediately. No hanging around for an issue. Why wasn't that solved? Why isn't that character doing this? Development happens over time, not over four paragraphs describing the intimate detail of things which we don't need to know about.
I lose my temper because it's always the same thing over and over. There's no real great creative push, it's banality of grounded TV style comic book fic. It's the same bloody characters popping up, but being different because they're "cool" or whatever. Nobody tries to push anything, change the world, change the style - That's my frustration as much as interest in improvement. I belong to other sites who do fic, with more relaxed (geological?) fan fiction, and the people there want reviews, but, and here's the key part WILL NOT review anyone else. They just won't. Don't have the time.
Ah, I am sorry chaps. I just don't know what came over me.
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